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Women and under represented groups
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regan



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 116
Location: cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:37 pm    Post subject: Women and under represented groups Reply with quote

Louise wrote

Quote:
but what can one expect from a person who advocates segregating women into a chess ghetto.


That is harsh for the sake of effect. I proposed seeking to create all-female chess clubs as a method of increasing female participation. You obviously disagree.

If you have a better idea to help increase the number of female players - let me know.

Martin
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JacksfullofAces



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 74
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:00 pm    Post subject: Women in mixed chess Reply with quote

Women do not need the stigma of "female only" chess. Chess pieces are not too heavy for a woman to lift-so why segregate them? Maybe to please inadequate male players who are worried about the stigma of playing and being beaten by a female.
If anyone genuinely wanted women to participate in chess - they would stop positive discrimation and make women feel comfortable in club chess.
Club chess is an unpleasant experience as I will testify. However I do not wish to scurry away and hide with other females who happen to play chess.
The idea of women only clubs is inherently sexist and insults the intelligence and determination of women.
I also play poker. This is very competitive but nobody seems to think that the cards are too heavy for my feeble hands to hold.
IF chess had open minded organisers instead of mysoginistic idiots then more women would play the game. No woman with an ounce of self respect would wish to be confined to a female only environment.
To date I have been blackballed twice. I have been instructed to play below male players considerably weaker then myself (I refused) and I was punched in the face at a congress for complaining about being cheated.
However running away to a female environment would not deal with these problems. There is only one solution. Female chess players must be prepared to give as good as they get. Somehow I couldn't see Judit Polgar scurrying off to a womens club.
This proposal is a PC solution to a long standing problem which isn't going to vanish because nobody is prepared to deal with organisers who treat women like mindless brain candy.
Incidently when I asked a tournament organiser if he would offer a best man prize in the event of a woman winning the tourney, he looked me in the eye and said "don't be stupid".But it was considered acceptable to offer a best female prize.
For years I have been in business and I deal well with men. Only one area have I had difficulties. That is in the world of chess. It seems worse in the UK as I understand that America and some Eastern European countries are more enlightened and women are not expected to be patronised at the game.
The day that female only clubs are on the ECF agenda is when I call on the committee members of my league to ask for a vote of no confidence in the board.
Louise
Fortune favours the bold
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JacksfullofAces



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 74
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Patronising Reply with quote

Louise,

I am assuming from the subject matter of the post on the Atticus website, that you are the author. It is a great shame that you should so easily and readily criticise. It is what I have come to expect from some of the men, but the vitriol of your own comments disappointed me. If you hand-on-heart could see all your own e-mails and private conversations published on the web, without there being some embarressment, then you are a saint.

Regards
Martin
Martin
I am no saint. However I do not say anything in a private email that I would be bothered if it were published- as I'm aware that emails can be circulated. My comments are my personal opinion. Last time I wrote to you I didn't get an answer. You then tell me you are disappointed when you get a public reaction from me. Had you replied to my previous email 28th of August I wouldn't be replying on a public forum. However you irritated me by not answering my questions. This also cost you a few votes as we do not approve of evasive people seeking election who decide to ignore a topic that is a hot potato.
As for moaning men- if you can't stand the heat. I suggest you take off your pinny and step out of the kitchen Laughing

Louise
Fortune favours the bold
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regan



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 116
Location: cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise,

I agree with 90 per cent of what you have just written. But here's my problem. I am CEO of English Chess...only 5 per cent of players are women...we know we must increase that percentage...What do we do? Practically and in the real world?

How do you make chess clubs more "female friendly?".

The 4ncl has managed to boost women's participation by making each team field a woman. Short of that, I've no idea

Martin
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JacksfullofAces



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 74
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin
The 4NCL experiment of a female board did not work. How could it? The match captains ran out of women who would play. Maybe like me they didn't want to get selected for the wimmins board. I refused point blank to participate in that league and got into a few arguments due to my refusal to comply with this patronising rule.
If I or another person doesn't merit selection on ability then they shouldn't be chosen for a team. With 4NCL usually all that happened was that the bottom board was occupied by a woman who then played another female. Hardly progression is it?
The ECF might like to consider carefully how to change the general organiser attitude towards female players rather then hiding them in the background.
What next! Clubs for gay people, clubs for disabled people. It could be a never ending segregation of homo sapiens who play chess.
Louise
Fortune favours the bold
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regan



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 116
Location: cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The ECF might like to consider carefully how to change the general organiser attitude towards female players


How?

Martin
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JacksfullofAces



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 74
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin
If you propose to segregate women further then you will encourage inappropiate behaviour from organisers. They will get the message that discrimination is acceptable, and how long will it be before club secretary's say to prospective female members that they do not want them as members as there are female clubs for them to join.
What then? Female only leagues- to protect the women from the men.
If I had a free hand
I would abolish womens chess.
I would get rid of female titles
I would not mention gender when publishing the Grading book
Furthermore I would make it clear to club secretarys and organisers that sexual discrimation is unacceptable and could lead to expulsion from the ECF. However this will not happen as the federation wants to rake in as much money from the leagues and counties as possible.
A system could be introduced where discrimation against certain players of either gender could be examined. I believe that this exists in the work place. It is called the industrial tribuneral.
Furthermore Margaret Thatcher became a highly successful Prime Minister. I don't recall women only selections when she began her political career.
Louise
Fortune favours the bold
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billyboy62



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi louise
you raise some very good points about women chess players as a club we have tried hard to get more women members without success
the 1 lady member we have is a intergral member off our club she captains a team [how often does that happen] and she plays in 2 off our other teams and has never been asked to play lower than any man we play on grade strenth
if you have got any ideas how we could get more women/girls into our club i would apreciate them
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Craig Mnure



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise, could you explain what you mean when you talk about discrimination by club secretaries and organisers, and give some examples? I don't mean the positive discrimination ideas (female only chess clubs, best female player prizes etc) referred to above but actual negative discrimination.

I can only recall ever seeing this happen once, but maybe I'm not looking at things in the right way. The one instance concerned a club which met at a venue which did not allow women on the premises. That was some years ago and I don't know if it still applies (I hope not). As far as I was concerned they should have been told to either find a new venue or resign from the league.

I'm sure you must be right that some discrimination exists but without knowing how it manifests itself it's difficult for the majority of us who want to encourage greater female participation in chess to deal with it.
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richardjames



Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Twickenham

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

What next! Clubs for gay people, clubs for disabled people. It could be a never ending segregation of homo sapiens who play chess.


As Louise is probably aware there already are clubs for disabled people. London Deaf compete successfully in the London League.

There are also tournaments for visually impaired and hearing impaired people. Teams of visually impaired, hearing impaired and physically disabled players take part in the Chess Olympics. The ECF Grand Prix includes categories for women and disabled players.

Many clubs operate discrimination by age. I run one myself which discriminates against adult players by not allowing them to join. Many clubs, rightly or wrongly, discriminate against young children by meeting at unsuitable times or in unsuitable venues.

In my book, anything, regardless of political correctness, that encourages more people to play chess at a reasonably serious level has to be worthwhile.
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JacksfullofAces



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 74
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject: Discrimination against women examples Reply with quote

I know of a female player who was refused permission to play above bottom board despite her ability.I know of several who had to defer to men to be picked even for lowest board.
Things that I have personally experienced include
being expected to play bottom board of a postal team despite my postal rating being higher then half of the team.
Being told to play below someone graded 40 points below me
Having telephone calls about chess business and being curtly informed that the caller wishes to speak to the man in the house as he is calling about chess and I wouldn't understand.
I have only served as a match captain, club secretary , league secretary, league grader LOL
I was blackballed for beating the Metropolitan club secretary in the club championship. It was humiliating for him as I sacced a piece plus an exchange and trounced him. After this occurence none of the five match captains used me despite my holding the highest score for one of the teams the previous season.
Only getting asked for a match at the last minute due to desperation from a captain short of players.
Being ordered to turn out for a county squad as a rival team was hosting all women and David Smith thought I would make a nice token guesture. He slammed down the phone when given a polite refusal.
Was punched in the face by Alec Webster Sutton 94 because I grumbled my opponent was cheating. Not only did I get refused a fair hearing but my clothes were discussed and popular rumour had it that I deserved all I got as I was apparently half naked at the time of the incident. Despite being dressed in trousers and blouse. They wouldn't have discussed the clothing a man wore.
At a blitz event my opponent attempted immediate resignation. When I enquired why- his answer was "you are a woman. It is the only way you will win a game"
I walloped the clock told him to move and trounced him soundly.
At a quick play event I messed up with my Sicillian and got told I lost due to female hormones.
I was invited to attend a training session for women. A horrified male player informed me that these sessions were arranged for certain GMs to take their pick of the women who turned up.
I must say that usually my opponents were okay and in general I rarely experienced problems with them. The difficulties were officials and organisers who felt that they had little power in every day life and therefor enjoyed patronising and belittling women who ventured into chess.
The other day while watching a poker dvd. I was delighted to hear the comentator greet a woman player who had made the final table of the WSOP with the words "few women make the final table of the WSOP but this is not because they are less proficient players but only because there are few of them.
Why don't we get this attitude at chess. Instead we hear patronising hogwash such as women have no spatial awareness. Untrue! I can park our Jag perfectly. Women are slaves to their hoirmones. Again total rubbish. It seems that it is men who have problems with urges.
Discrimation against women! you bet. I often say I wish I could disguise myself as a man and go out and enjoy the game in peace.
Louise
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JacksfullofAces



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 74
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To reply to Richard
I and many others don't wish to be part of a positive discrimination scheme. I recall a club where we had a blind member and he was treated as just another player so clearly he felt the same way.
I think that chess players would like to be "just players" not put into neat little compartments and offered patronising insults by those who happen to be male (without disability) players.
Not everyone likes political correctness and the majority of women and disabled people have little wrong with their brains so have no need of patronising discrimination from nannnying organisers.
As for the blind players I have the greatest respect for them. It is quite difficult to play without ever viewing the board. The player we knew had always been blind and he certainly didn't play bottom board neither did he suffer discrimination.
As for Juniors they seem to do very well from the system with generous tournament structures and many extras including training rarely available to adult players.
The fact that the clubs finish later then their bedtime is not discrimation as adults have to work during the day.
How many adults get offered coaching? I recall paying 50 an hour for mine.
Louise
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David



Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 768
Location: Sefton Park, Liverpool

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ye Gods! I'm away for a few days, and it all kicks off Very Happy

Having read through this thread, it seems to have become confused, and in need of sorting out. There is one line of information/concern, begun by EL and thereafter joined by SH, MR, CM and others. And there is another separate issue concerning women/discrimination in chess that has become entangled with it.

Because the second aspect is important and deserves proper debate, I think it should be organised as a separate thread, retaining the original thread of course. I've mentioned this to Admin, so look for minor changes shortly.

Finally, in the light of some foregoing posts, I'd like to remind colleagues of our policy on this Forum. Atticus CC is committed to open democratic and uncensored debate, constrained only by zero tolerance for discriminatory or abusive comment. We remain tolerant of robust and divergent views; accept there will be occasional squabbles between consenting adults; and have no plans to blow 'moral whistles' or engage in prissy 'moderation' unless absolutely obliged. But we will not tolerate 'bullying'; we won't tolerate destructive mischief-making; and we won't tolerate people who visit merely to rant.

This is, and will remain, a discussion forum with high standards. So fire away; argue forcefully but intelligently; demolish others' arguments if you wish; but keep it clean, acknowledge other points of view, and avoid personal insults, please Smile Oh, I nearly forgot - keep it happy too Razz
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JacksfullofAces



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 74
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definition of a rant.
Usually someone who voices forcible opposistion towards the Status Quo and names and shames when asked for examples of discrimation. BTW is that David Welch posting?
Louise
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Craig Mnure



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JacksfullofAces wrote:
Definition of a rant.
Usually someone who voices forcible opposistion towards the Status Quo and names and shames when asked for examples of discrimation. BTW is that David Welch posting?


No, it isn't David Welch.

And what have you got against Status Quo? Though I'd have to agree they started going downhill around the time John Coghlan left.
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JacksfullofAces



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 74
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL the group aren't as good as the early Rolling Stones in my opinion.
Louise
Fortune favours the bold
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